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Maren Wood: 00:00 Phd is in education and the student needs to figure out how best they can leverage that education and I think when we, I think one of the challenges that I have right now with the conversation about careers is the idea that there should be some sort of causation between I did a history phd and now Iran and Ed tech startup like, no, like that’s not, there is no correlation between what I do now and what I didn’t have the history like I’m interested in. There’s, there’s books about me, you know, I was interested in, you know, high level thinking and strategic thinking and problem solving, people’s telling people’s stories and mentoring. And that’s what I liked about history and that’s what I like about what I do now, but that’s not necessarily that my history degree prepared me to do the same.

Matt H.: 00:43 Welcome to helium podcast. I’m matt. That was Marin would add beyond the professor orient with Jen polk. She’s talking about an open secret. Most phds will not follow the traditional track to professor in tenure. In episode 14, we dove in deep with them to talk about this more plainly. So Christine, I had a question after listening back to today’s episode.

Matt H. : 01:09 Back to our days in graduate school and how much we heard about nonacademic careers or even all to academic careers. What was your recollection?

Christine O. H.: 01:19 When I really think about it, I always had to actively seek out my own advice honestly and really pull on my own network of industry or government context to get any visibility to options beyond academia. I mean the role models and academia, ours prize people in academia. So it’s not as if I think people are trying to keep that information from us. But if I think, like you said, back to experience, unless the person is aware of their blind spot and specifically hungry for knowledge about other options, I do not think it’s very often built into graduate training. But um, our guests for this conversation like you mentioned, are really addressing this gap, don’t you think, Matt?

Matt H. : 02:02 They suggested some ways that professors and departments can help all of their students more effectively. My biggest takeaway was the idea of discussing with students the reality of their careers early and often not in the frame that I heard so much in Grad school, which is some of us are going to win the professor game and some of us are going to lose the professor game, but rather in the frame of all of us are going to go on in the future to create a big impact for the world. For you, Christine, what were some of the other big ideas that were key?

Christine O. H.: 02:34 I really think this conversation highlights how much more is needed to be done on the part of institutions and on the part of mentors to prepare Grad students for the widest possible range of opportunities, so I think this episode will be especially useful for mentors and thinking about how to best guide their Grad students and how to bring in perspectives they themselves don’t have experience with necessarily or for postdocs are Grad students to understand options beyond academia so that whatever path people choose, they choose the one that best matches what impact they want to make. Not The path of least resistance or least confusion. So I say let’s get into it.

Matt H. : 03:17 Alright. We’re welcoming to the podcast today. Maren and Jen Polk from beyond the professoriate. Sorry I had trouble spitting that out. But welcome to you both today. We’re so glad you’re here

Christine O. H.: 03:33 talk about what you doing and I wonder if you could just kinda each take a turn talking about your backgrounds and sort of the why’s behind what you’re doing today.

Jen Polk: 03:46 Sure. Well let’s see what I do now. So Marin and I worked very closely and we did that full time and we’ve been working together since late 2013. Our first venture together was in May 2014. We did our first online career conference for phds and so there was someone for that organization for that, for that was May, 2014 and we just did our fifth annual and then we came together. We had our own businesses came together once a year to do that. And then about 18 months ago, maybe a little more than that, we decided to take the crop year round to offer more support to both so we have our online community, so community vibe beyond the professoriate is up and running now and that we are just launching now a subscription service for universities called [inaudible]. And that is a new learning a website with a ton of awesome video content and other educational resources for graduate students, postdocs, faculty members, staff, anyone who’s interested in what comes next after you do a phd. So that’s what we do now. I’ll stop talking and let you explain that more in the beginning.

Maren Wood : 05:12 Yeah. So, um, I did my phd in history at Carolina and actually UNC Chapel Hill and actually I’m jen and I met a few years ago, you know, like one or two back when we were doing our masters degrees, uh, who geniuses. We finished quickly just getting, uh, so we met in 2002 during our master’s degree, but we didn’t really hang out too much. We knew of each other. We’re in the same program, but we were doing different things. And then I went to Carolina to do my phd in history and Jen went to the University of Toronto to do her phd in history and we didn’t keep in touch, but um, I graduated in 2009. And for those of you that have memories, 2009 was a pretty brutal. Was it beginning of the brutal, I think would be the way to put it. Uh, there’s been a, especially in the humanities and social sciences, but also in stem at every year seems to be another story of like the horrors of the job market.

Maren Wood : 06:02 Fewer and fewer opportunities. And that’s not what I expected. I expected to be a professor. I only ever wanted it to be a professor. I was preparing to be a professor. I did nothing other than academic work. And so when the job market collapsed, I was really ill prepared to think about anything else. And you know, universities we’re not offering anywhere near what they’re offering now, which is still not a lot, but some programs have really stepped up over the last couple of years. So I did some adjunct work. I continued to apply for faculty positions and then it just really became unsustainable. Like I remember sitting in my backyard in Durham, North Carolina thinking like I had just come in second for a four, four teaching load at a university. It was a temporary position and they had told me that what they were picking a payment was not going to be enough to live off of and my partner had just gotten a job in Washington DC, so I was faced with a Po and I didn’t even get it.

Maren Wood : 06:56 Like that was the whole point. Like I came in second for this thing that was not even good. And I remember thinking like, why am I working so hard? Like surely there has to be something else that I can do that would bring me satisfaction. So we moved to Washington DC and I floundered. I didn’t know how to find a nonacademic job. I didn’t have any resources. Um, and so I started doing research on where history, phd is ended up. I did have my very early tracking project and then as I started to publish and work with the American historical association, I started getting contacted for people who are interested in career advice, so it began developing like a career support service just myself and I kept seeing this jen poke on twitter and social media. So I reached out to jen who was working. She was running from phd to life and I pitched her this idea of like, what happens if we did this like online career conference will sell tickets, we’ll have people attend and it’ll be awesome.

Maren Wood : 07:49 And she was like, great, sounds fun. Um, and that was the beginning of beyondprof. And um, it was really my motivation is that I was so lost and I felt so much despair and so much uncertainty when I left academia that I really wanted to provide. I want, I don’t want other people to have that experience because I now know that there are smart people everywhere. There’s lots of ways to use our skills are lots of ways to leverage or education. And I wanted to provide people with resources so that they too could find their way forward and find new opportunities

Jen Polk: 08:21 on. Marion contacted me about five years ago.
Jen Polk: 08:24 Yeah. And I was seeing elmiron would I know that person. So 13 I was. So I finished my phd in 2012 and um, I.
Jen Polk: 08:43 and that was what I’m going to do. And I looked at job in my field in Oregon and I’m probably saying that wrong,
Jen Polk: 08:51 what know. And the person they ended up already had three books
Jen Polk: 08:56 published or something like that. Anyways, my heart wasn’t in it at the end of the day I, I felt bad about myself, but I never applied for any academic jobs. I felt bad about not a fine right. So it’s crazy. But. So I never ended up applying for academic jobs. And it was an, I felt very fortunate because I did have some savings. I felt like I had the ability to not worry about this too much and what helped me. And I never, that wasn’t a big plan to do this, but I ended up talking with a career coach. This is Hilary Hutchinson who works with a lot of academics and unhappy academics. She calls them something and it changed my life working with Hillary and that was back in the fall of 2012 when we started working with her. And I slowly, over the months did informational interviews with some coaches. I float around lots of other things that eventually in very late May 2013, uh, I took my first coaching class and a month later I had my first client, $10. Uh, so that was the context of me starting my business and I had my website and my blog at that point you mentioned some pac life and starting to get into this conversation more and more heavily. And then they’re in and I chatted and uh, you know, progress. And here we are.

Christine O. H.: 10:20 That is amazing. There’s so many threads to pick up on, but one of the things I love is just to, you know, your background in history and studying patterns and cause and effect in humans and how all of these things kind of weave together too.

Christine O. H.: 10:38 Make us all end up where we are. And instead of coming from a standpoint of thinking about where should I end up, it sounds like you’ve shifted to have what is needed kind of a model and you’re just bringing all of that expertise to bear on, okay, well this is a hole that I see in the process. How can we fill that need? And so just to follow up, and it might be kind of a detail to um, to follow up on. I’m sure we’ll expand this, but you know, you mentioned your conferences and your annual conferences and then a bunch of different things. Who are the people attending them? So who do you find being your audience now and maybe what you see it being in the future?

Jen Polk: 11:20 It’s really interesting because a bit different and depending on the, I think it’s fair to say that the conference is majority graduate students but not enormous majority graduate students. So there’s always a chunk of postdoc. And then other folks, people that are faculty members, long tenured track, uh, sometimes a non full time, part time adjunct. And then folks that have jobs for the community. This surprise, we anticipated

Maren Wood : 11:54 that our community would be largely Grad students, that it would be a similar demographic at the conference, but we have discovered that it is often folks that are beyond graduate school so they no longer have access to the resources on campus and many folks that we interact with our longtime postdoc or long time a non tenure track faculty members at various times and I mean if it’s not shocking, we didn’t anticipate it. Yeah. It’s one of the reasons why we decided to launch the e learning subscription site for institutions because we wanted to reach graduate schools, graduate students while they were in Grad school through their institution to support institutions who were doing this because. And also. Yes, and I guess also to raise awareness about beyond the professoriat to people while they’re in Grad school. Because the fact of the matter is there are lots of people who will choose to leave academia, but a lot of people will say flunk out like or they choose to leave later or it’s not really something that they’ve set out to do right away.

Maren Wood : 13:05 And so we just don’t know who’s going to be successful on the academic job market. There’s just limited opportunities. There’s academic fads, you know, something will be in vogue the year you start Grad school and then they’ll hire everybody and then no one wants to hire that particular area of specialization for the next 35 years. And we just don’t really have a good way to map that. And so we really want to. We really believed that a career exploration should happen early and often in Grad school, you know, if not, yeah. And it might, it might not be up to you, but also ultimately not be a good fit because if we could have less happy, fewer unhappy faculty, like if people actually felt like they made a choice, if they felt empowered to decide that that was the route that they wanted to take instead of doing it by default, I think that the people who would end up at colleges in teaching and research would be better fit.

Matt H. : 13:59 So, so, uh, maybe general asked you this question, are you seeing in. No, talking about getting into the launching, the seed learning platform, getting in with the graduate students, are you seeing any trends across academia in terms of the career goals for graduate students?

Jen Polk: 14:21 Well, it’s really interesting. I just saw University of Michigan Graduate School survey results gone anything about methodology, but they surveyed their first year of Phd students and all of the discipline and they aggregate data for arts and humanities, social sciences, life and health sciences like biological and health sciences and engineering and physical sciences and all the stomach both at 46 percent first year phd student are aiming her faculty job and the rest are either unsure or aren’t, but in humanities it is an art that is 86 percent. I think the number was something really, really high. Who went in wanting to faculty job and zero said no and that doesn’t surprise me either Marin or I can speak for us and then social sciences was like 73 percent one faculty job, which again, there’s no surprise there I suspect. I do think from other surveys they’ve seen that those numbers go down a little bit, a little bit. Maybe not in humanities but in some stem fields, but what surprised me coming from the humanities is that there was a general sense he doesn’t go when I was in graduate school that Oh, this wasn’t easy for physicists and it’s just easy for engineers and of course they going. They just go into industry that they talk about all the time, whatever that means, but it’s like not a big deal and what I have learned is that actually a lot of folks in stem, even in engineering programs where there is a very clear path, a lot of them are really committed to working at faculty members and that continues as they go on and do potentially multiple post docs and a lot higher numbers want those faculty positions that actually will ever get down.

Maren Wood: 16:04 I was going to say, I think it’s not surprising to like when Jen said 86 percent of humanities phds say they want to be faculty and then when you look at the career outcomes, like you look at the Aha breathe, look at the 10,000 phd project that’s come up from the University of Toronto and we have opinions about those, uh, 80 percent of humanities phds and the 10,000 phd project and it’s really close in the Aha actually still work in higher ed. Like they will, they choose to stay on. It’s contingent faculty that move into higher education administration and we don’t actually see humanities and social science phds moving into industry even with we even went half of humanities phd is, won’t end up in, in on tenure track jobs. There is still a preference for Higher Ed. Um, and I think that opens up different kinds of conversations and opportunities for universities who want to support humanity students than maybe necessarily the type of internship programs you would develop for stem phds who are interested in industry. You know, for example, maybe there’s more of an opportunity to create internship programs within universities to take advantage of Grad students interest in working in state and higher education, whereas a program for stem, my focus much more on can we create partnerships with, with and opportunities in industry to move these phds in the spaces where they do want to be and where they will thrive. I think it’s a lack of imagination on the part of humanities phds, but you know, you got to start. We’re gonna start with people are at and, and get people moving in the right direction.

Jen Polk: 17:28 One of the, one of the big challenges, and I know this for myself and you know people. Let me give the example of somebody we were talking before, Adam, Ruben, I, he works with a malaria vaccine, a small biotech company that had married and he was saying when he was his molecular cell biology phd program, they didn’t know anything. The graduate students didn’t know anything about what other opportunities. You gave this anecdote. Somebody came from a big consulting firm and gave a workshop on careers and consulting and Adam joke that like, all the Grad students with department, they’re applied to work in that consulting firm and it’s not like one job. It’s not necessarily that they, that they were like dying to work there, it’s just that he said they didn’t know anything else. They didn’t know anything else. So I think that’s a real opportunity to let you know, teach Grad students about what’s out there. And we just saw an example of this, uh, that’s run by a bunch of math, frost and Grad students face largely as University of Ohio there, those students to do our d o, s and they’re bringing in this fall, a bunch of speakers with mathematics, Phd’s of the phds from a bunch of companies from all over the US to talk to them about what’s going on. And I think that’s fantastic. Um, the challenge that folks and disciplines that don’t necessarily translate as easily to workplaces, other workplaces, uh, that’s a big challenge because, you know, nobody is looking for history Phd’s per se. I mean a few, but most employers are not looking for history Phd’s per se in the way that they might be looking for a physics phd, not because of their physics expertise but because they know they have very strong math and data science skills for example. So it is, I mean that there is a challenge

Maren Wood: 19:27 and I was going to say I think it’s the challenge for stem is a little bit different, especially if you don’t want to continue. If, if you, if what you don’t want to do is continue to do bench science. I think that’s where the challenge becomes. Like if you want to move into project or product management or if you wanted to move into business, like if you actually don’t want to do science anymore. I think that that’s where we, we work with a lot of stem people who are in that case because it becomes much more difficult, um, for stem phds to transition. The other people we see that have difficulty are people that do really esoteric topics even in stem. And so they maybe learned to work on like they may be focused on learning equipment that only five other people in the country and that’s super exciting from a science background, but then there on the job market without knowing the instruments that are that are dominating the conversations in industry and so they have to do very similar things to humanities and Social Sciences Phd’s, which is a really rely on their transferable skills and we don’t talk about how to do that in the academy.

Maren Wood: 20:25 We don’t talk about project and program management or sales or mentoring or client facing interactions. We don’t encourage people to volunteer at the science fair, which we keep hearing about is a great way to get nonacademic work experience without taking in another job and really trying to find creative ways to build up leadership skills and those kinds of things. People really care about your technical knowledge and some of your transferable skills. Ability to do as Jonathan data writing, science communication, teamwork, project management, and the specifics of your dissertation are often the least interesting thing about your candidacy for a nonacademic.

Christine O. H.: 20:59 I feel like what you are talking about in terms of trying to discern the difference between people who I don’t want a thing versus people who have never heard of that thing, you know, it’s hard to kind of figure out how you lay out the choices for people and the unknown unknowns are difficult to pinpoint for a person who is just in a silo and has been in a certain incentives that may actually work against the flow of broadening their idea. So from the point of view of people who might be listening to this who are early career, yeah, some people listening might be deciding what to do and really listening to what you are saying and saying like, wow, these are different options, but some people might have landed a faculty position and not have the visibility for how to mentor correctly for a variety of things. So I guess my question is do you have advice for people for how to. If they are mentors in an academic setting and they may have their own story of how they got there and they are at currently academic, how can they help people that are working with them?

Jen Polk: 22:16 Well, let me start with that advice from mentors. I’ll start very generally that anyone can do a and also to just quickly say, Christine, we have heard all of the story. So everything that they have, how often does in terms of advice for mentors, you know, and a very general level things can make a big impact that are I think being curious and open minded and, and taking an active interest in not only your students as whole people, not just as students in your lab or working on the dissertation but pinging and interested in then this both people and making resources available so beyond just sort of being open and curious and maybe opening the conversation. Making resources available. So that’s an example. One prof on twitter or gave the other day, which I thought I haven’t done before, which is excellent, is have the books on your shelf that are about, you know, other things to do.

Jen Polk: 23:20 And point them out to people. It can be tricky, right? Because there is a tone involved in this. You don’t want to imply that this is something that you’re giving to your students because you know they’re the losers. Yeah. You don’t want to imply any sort of failure. But I think open and honest conversations, another simple thing that a lot of faculty members or departments as a whole can do is keep track of their own alumni. And this doesn’t have to be a big deal. You know, maybe you maybe you assign a Grad student once a year to look people up on linkedin and you know, just keeping in touch pies or I’m a advisor to providers called here in Canada. Keep track in your alumni masters, phd alumni were and then an email once a year. Right. You never know. And those peak, because I say this not only because those people are going to have great information for your students and know exactly where your students are coming from, but networking is so crucial in multiple ways to people changing careers or getting into good job after graduate program. So I feel like those are really, really small things. We could go on other small thing, they’ll let me keep going,

Maren Wood: 24:29 recognize that it’s, that we’re not preparing people for careers, we’re educating people even at the graduate level and faculty faculty members, right? Like a phd is an education and the student needs to figure out how best they can leverage that education. And I think when we. I think one of the challenges that I have right now with a conversation about careers is the idea that there should be some sort of causation between I did a history phd and now I run an ed tech startup. Like no, like it’s not, there is no correlation between what I do now and what I did in the history like I’m interested in, there’s, there’s books about me, you know, I was interested in, you know, high level thinking and strategic thinking and problem solving, people’s telling people’s stories and mentoring. And that’s what I liked about history and that’s what I like about what I do now.

Maren Wood: 25:16 But that’s not necessarily that my history degree prepared me to do this thing or that your alumni are doing something that’s directly related to their degree and that has to also be okay. You know, I think recognizing that it’s an education that people can leverage in lots of different ways and think is really important and approaching it that way and even protein, these tracking projects not as like you have a degree from our department, therefore you can go do these things because we often hear that it’s actually the distractions or side hustles that are paired with some other skill that’s leading people to these nonacademic jobs. So it’s not linear. And I think it’s really important to just emphasize that point and I think emphasize that for yourself so that it’s not that you have to get your students jobs is that you have to teach them how to leverage their education and the different places in which their education could potentially have value.

Maren Wood: 26:05 And then I think I just would echo what jen says is bringing in people like it doesn’t have to be expensive. You don’t have to have big conferences. You can have Friday seminars at noon where your alumni come in on zoom and they talk and they answer questions and that can be a really simple thing to do and it can be a really cool way to go about it without having to, you know, I’m not really convinced that we need to restructure curriculum. I don’t think faculty are necessarily needing to like write resumes. Um, I think that there’s lots of ways that you can be supportive if instead of focusing on getting students jobs, we focus on giving them a really rich education and then empowering them to ask themselves questions, ask what’s best for them themselves and giving them the tools to explore career options.

Maren Wood: 26:48 And I want to go back to one of the things you were saying earlier, which is I wouldn’t treat students differently because once again we don’t know who’s actually going to be successful in the job market. We also don’t know what happens. You know, like when I started Grad school I went right through. I want it to be a teacher because I’d never experienced anything else. I never spent any amount of time like my dad’s a farmer. My mom was a stay at home mom, like I’d never actually been in any sort of professional environment. I got to college and I was like, oh, this is amazing, and I felt alive and I felt like I was part of the club, but I hadn’t. I didn’t know professionals in any real sense. I didn’t really know what the professional world was like and so I think I was really limited and I might have actually found consulting would’ve been exciting or policy work would have been exciting and so I think we don’t treat students differently because they might be just defaulting because they weren’t so excited to be part of the cool kids and this is amazing, exciting and I feel alive and connected and this is the only place that’s ever happened to me, but it’s because I’ve never experienced it in any other environment because I’ve never been exposed to those environments.

Jen Polk: 27:50 It’s a huge fallacy or people for just because you’re awesome at this and energizes you. It doesn’t mean that something else wouldn’t be energized. You. Right?

Matt H. : 28:04 Yeah.

Christine O. H.: 28:04 You know, it’s funny, I was up til midnight last night talking with my high school senior about this exact topic about what he should try to go toward or not to work because it’s not just because you’re good at it and can’t hack it. The this should be what your life energy goes toward. Right. So this idea I, I can very much identify with trying to get in side the topic of saying, you know, what gets you in this flow state of, of wanting to put your creativity there and wanting to show up to it every day. It might not be the same thing as the things that you can achieve

Jen Polk: 28:47 merit earlier about like mentoring thing in graduate school. That’s why she liked history. The example I like to give or that I was always interested in my dissertation was about people doing stuff in community or what the heck was that about? And outside of graduate school and inside of Graduate School I was involved in actually building community. No president of the Graduate Association, Student Government and so running the pub nights and that kind of door, but also like I had a music blog is run on. I got to know lots of people in the music scene and had a blog and a podcast and you know, so I realized as I ms dot window reflection piece that actually one of the things that connected me wasn’t like historical research, although that was cool too. I love the archives, you know, then people are often and hilarious. Uh, but I really am interested in people and communities and that’s why I love social media, right? Because I mean there’s enough communities and that’s why I love online communities.

Matt H. : 29:44 I wanted to go back to this equal treatment idea because it’s not for me. I was thinking as you were saying that also about the mentor, right? So getting equal treatment from the administration in terms of the results that they’re producing because especially in the humanities, your results, what your legacy is. An academic is kind of. We were talking to somebody earlier, it’s kind of this traditional view of your, the branch and you have these little leaves that are coming off of your branch and I thought it was a perfect analogy and have you seen it? So then my question is, have you seen any examples of universities or institutions kind of giving equal credit to people if putting people out there in the market that, you know, they’re having successful awesome careers, but they might not necessarily be pornography historians,

Jen Polk: 30:49 pages  and uh, you know, in some future that will not happen again. I think they might be called different things in different disciplines, but it’s very. You list all of your alumni and what you’re doing now and they’re very, very. They’re very. Have a lot of those pages, especially humanities, social sciences will only less tire track faculty members are postdocs and C’mon guys, any faculty member that I think you need to decide for yourself, what are you doing?

Maren Wood: 31:21 Yeah. I think that that goes back again to the. For me, I think where this conversation has gone that’s become some misguided is again trying to draw correlations between people’s degrees and their careers and in terms of like, so my department, UNC Chapel Hill, I’m getting emails now from the chair of the department, which is great. They started the linkedin page. They don’t know what to do with it. That’s fine. And so they’re starting a. She keeps asking, you know, the last email I got was like, Hey, we’ve heard from a lot of faculty but we haven’t heard from like those of you that are outside of the academy. And I think, and I haven’t written her because I’m busy, but I think there’s also a sense of, you know, this has to be some. Not that my department is particularly hostile. I don’t think they thought of me at all in any way and so I don’t want to say that, but I think that the culture of a department has to change a before nonacademic alumni are still going to feel connected.

Maren Wood: 32:14 Like I think the reason why they’re not getting responses back is because people had crappy experiences when they left or they don’t necessarily see how they’re going to fit on the placement page, but in terms of like a academic culture, one of the things that Jen and I’ve been doing the summer is interviewing phds one on one and just did one with Matt and regardless of the discipline and regardless of if the person left 10 years ago, 15 years ago, or 10 months ago, the number one thing that they say when we say what advice do have for, for advisors is change your attitude. Don’t make us feel like losers. Don’t make us feel like failures. So I think that before we can get to the idea of like how do we celebrate all of our alumni. I think the challenge is to make sure that all of your alumni actually feel celebrated and supported and connected.

Maren Wood: 32:58 And I think that really goes back to a culture that is nurtured from the day that student actually arrives in your department in which the alumni are showcased. Their brought back. We talk about non faculty careers, we have provide internship opportunities and programs. We provide funding for it like not just to get you to the archives but actually to get you to work with a nonprofit, you know, we do these different things that say we want to help you learn how to leverage your education in the best way that matches for you and do that from this from the start and then you might get start getting to shift from your alumni who will start, will still feel connected to your department and feel celebrated by you. And I think it will really take senior leadership. Like I don’t mean from deans, I mean from people whose academic legacies are so set saying I am going to list all my phds on my cv and I can do that because I’m a full endowed professor and I’ve decided that this is what I’m doing and really be a leader. Right? You got to do it. You have to take the leadership. I feel like that

Christine O. H.: 34:01 is the same as so many places where, you know, the people with the advantages from the system are the people who can be the spokespeople for how it should change, right. And um, and they do that by opening their ears to the people who are the opposite of them.

Jen Polk: 34:18 I’m thinking just to jump in the middle here, the thing I think that collaborating because we’re out here doing all these really cool, fascinating, fantastic. Things were awesome. Like somebody who has a history phd is like everywhere, like I think that’s a really, really cool. I mean imagine the reach

Maren Wood: 34:44 ego cool with or without the degree. Maybe it’s just after and that’s okay too, but they’re still doing awesome things.

Christine O. H.: 34:55 One of the things I have the pleasure to do is sit on a few different committees where people talk about exactly what you’re saying is just how do we be innovative and how do we listen and how do we bring in more voices in and meet the needs and, and kind of grow for the reality that the people that we are both investing in, but also in, in a bigger sense, how are they investing their whole lives and talent and uh, you know, life energy in us and how do we be responsible and ethical with that? And so, you know, the thing that I think that resonates with across all your messages is just how do we erase the idea of the default, right? Somebody is coming to us with their whole life energy and all their possibilities. They are saying, I will have an intellectual generative life.

Christine O. H.: 35:47 And how do you take that contract on it as an academic institution, as an advisor in a responsible way that honors that builds on it. And then also kind of to your point, jen, projects that out and talks about the successes regardless of whether it ends up in the path that the, the advisor is on, which is that parts of default, they’re faculty but or if it ends up in some other way that is either another sector or fully new invention. So I just really celebrate what y’all are doing and I think it’s something that universities need.

Matt H. : 36:24 Well thank you so much for talking to us for so long. Today was just a great conversation. As usual. We feel sad that we have to end it.

Maren Wood: 36:33 Yeah. Well the interview us again, we can talk more.

Matt H. : 36:40 It’s funny because we do these interviews so that we find that there’s a part two or there’s a part that we should have just focused on the whole time, but you know, that’s fine. We’ll, we’ll bring you back again sometime talking about this topic as you can tell.

Christine O. H.: 36:54 Alright. Put the re and research for keeping that for sure.

Maren Wood: 37:04 So thank you both for having us.

Matt H.: 37:07 You’ve been listening to episode 14 of helium podcast. Press that subscribe, button it into your podcast player and you won’t Miss Episode 15 coming up in a couple of weeks with Professor Greg Lowery from Carnegie Mellon. The show notes for this episode can be found at The show is produced and edited by Christine Ogilvie Hendren and myself, Matt Hotze or music is provided by Michael Blake who can be found at him. Blake Big thank you to him and thank you to you for listening all the way through to the end of the show. We really appreciate you and please spread the word about helium podcast so we can grow and help more people that are early career researchers. Take care.

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