Turn Around and Enjoy the View

2:38 – We ask Greg about his successes. He had a quick rise from Assistant to Full Professor at Carnegie Mellon University. What strategies and actions contributed to his success?

3:38 – Greg says that your career is uphill and it will always be uphill if you are working on difficult interesting problems. He employs the analogy of mountain climbing to explain that you should take the time to turn around to see what you have accomplished.

5:18 – Matt asks Greg if he has a journaling practice. His advice about being self-reflective was aligned with that practice.

5:33 – Greg says he does not but it would not be a bad idea if you could find the time to do this regularly. He does take the time when he fills out his annual report for his university. This allows him to look back every twelve months to see what has been accomplished.

6:18 – On a personal note Greg did a trek to the Everest base camp a few years ago.

Creating Success for Yourself as an Early Career Researcher

7:13 – Greg gives a bunch of credit to his colleagues, mentors and students. He had exceptional mentoring as a junior faculty member. This is not just a person to pat you on the back, but a person to open doors for you. Good mentors suggest you for department seminars at other schools and as a keynote speaker for conferences they are leading.

8:38 – Greg first advises that you find a mentor right away if you are not assigned one. If you have one then find another. Latch onto as many senior people as you can that have an interest in growing senior faculty.

9:08 – Typical advice he got was to get three lines in the water (three topical areas and see what will hit). However, at some point he was not afraid to focus on one topical area exclusively.

10:28 – Focusing down helps because you start to be the person or one of the people that have to be invited to meetings on that topic. You also get the benefit of the doubt with proposals in the area because you name is out there as one of the top people in the research area.

11:03 – Greg’s third piece for career success is to stay focused on the fundamentals. You will get a bunch of requests for testing this or that, but your core research program should be addressing the fundamentals of the problem that you are in. If you are doing that then it translates to everyone else’s research.

How Soon Should Early Career Researchers Focus Down?

12:48 – Matt asks Greg if he would still advise someone to spread their bets in terms of their topic areas in their early career. How soon should you focus down to a topic area and be known as the go to person for that topic?

13:43 – For Greg it was a natural decision because he has three areas and proposals in one area kept getting hits. If you are getting nibbles on everything then it is a little harder. He would guess. Where you have success, now start focusing your efforts. Don’t be satisfied with just one, now go get five more grants.

How do Early Career Researchers Learn to Say No?

15:18 – Christine asks about learning how to say strategic NOs to new opportunities.

15:36 – Greg Talks about how saying no it not natural. There are certainly things in his career that he said yes to that he should not have.

16:43 – Greg’s decision process is based on these questions. Will I learn something new? Will what I do have an impact or not? If both of those are unlikely then he says no.

17:25 – Time is limited and choices must be made wisely. They sooner you learn how to do this the better off you are from a career trajectory point of view.

Reinvention and Pivoting Your Career

18:05 – Christine asks Greg about the reinvention/pivot that he has navigated a few times in his career.

18:41 – Greg mentions Jerry Schnoor who has said that you need to reinvent yourself multiple times in your career to stay relevant.

19:30 – If you stick with the fundamentals of a subject those fundamentals will translate nicely to other areas because often the same questions apply to two different scenarios.

20:20 – The pivot is hard because you need to re-educate yourself on a different subject. In Greg’s case he studied a plant biology book when he wanted to start going to meeting about nanoparticle transport in plants.

21:50 – He’s asking the same fundamental questions, but operating in a different domain space. He is applying a core skill set to a new problem.

23:00 – Greg to aid a transition into a new space he participated in a National Academies panel to that helped him understand what the issues were surrounding the new space he wanted to work in. But that was a year commitment.

Light speed Round

24:00 – What is one mistake you made?

24:45 – Not saying no to things where the benefit of doing it did not outweigh the cost.

25:00 – What is the biggest win in your career so far?

25:10 – Center for the Environmental Implications of Nanomaterials – where Greg is the Deputy Director

26:00 – When do you write?

26:10 – Greg writes in the evening and batches all his administrative tasks in the morning.

26:35 – Do you have any fears in your career?

26:43 – That he won’t get an opportunity to work on a big important problem again.

28:13 – How do you escape from the daily grind?

28:25 – Probably not enough. He does workouts and hangs out with his kids. He has benefited for 18 years from the 12 minute walk he has to hike up a hill and get it out of his system.

31:00 – Greg talks about how the past five of six years it has been hard to recruit good people into academia. Funding crunches turn people off. He wishes us well with Helium podcast because it will hopefully encourage good people to target academia as a career.

Full Transcript

[0:00] We’re always all of us and our entire careers are always walking uphill.

[0:06] There’s there’s no there’s no free lunch there’s you know everything worth doing is worth doing right and put in the effort into.
But you’re walking uphill and sometimes it’s super steep and sometimes you have to run other times you can go a little slow but you’re always going uphill.
And every now and then you just got to turn around and look and look at,
at where you where you are now it look how high you’ve gotten and look at everything you’ve done behind you.

[0:35] Welcome to Helium podcast I’m Matt Hotze and I’m here with Christine Ogilvie Hendren.
That was Greg Lowry of Carnegie Mellon University he’s talking about turning around and enjoying the view of your career compliments.
And how important it is to self-reflect you understand how far you’ve come no matter how far along you are on your career journey as an early-career researcher.

[0:58] I really like this focus on adjusting to a professional mindset of life being more about the journey and
in a learning to live in the present as opposed to waiting for some imaginary time in the future when it’s just an easy cruise
so his practical advice kind of highlighted three strategies for just getting good at being in that state of going uphill like,
seeking actively support of mentors, celebrating successes along the way is he mentioned and then knowing when to really focus in.

[1:28] Yeah I mean that was great advice on those three strategies and I think that
this episode alone is worth listening to for that part and he also shares a couple of questions which has to do with focusing too two questions that you should ask yourself every time you’re thinking about saying yes to a new opportunity.

[1:46] If you didn’t listen to episode 15 yet maybe go back and pick that one up first and in both conversations I think you’ll just see how Greg is a great example of someone who believes and lives out that our job in academic research is
not only possible but can be really fun and I can make an impact so let’s roll the second half of our conversation with Greg Lowry.
I think that this is probably a good place that kind of shift the conversation and in fact it’s remarkable that over you said 18 years you’ve only had three people that have had to move on,
entirely that’s that’s amazing and I think that speaks to how successful you’ve been at what you said your goal was which is to produce people right people good people for the field.
And you know in terms of we’re going to brag on you a little bit here but in terms of their typical track for Professor you had a pretty quick success in building a stable group and advancing from assistant, to full professor and we wanted to,
let you talk a little bit about that and what do you feel are the keys obviously besides you know the recruiting piece that we’ve talked about.
Of your being able to establish yourself and efficiently grow in in it that s-curve like you said hit that hit the growth part of that s-curve.

[3:08] Yeah so you know when you’re in your career it’s hard to see what’s going on I just gave this advice actually to one of my former students.
You should send me a note about like it’s a struggle it feels like everything’s uphill.
And it is right we’re always all of us and our entire careers are always walking uphill.

[3:35] There’s there’s no there’s no free lunch there’s you know everything worth doing is worth doing right and putting the effort into,
you’re walking uphill and sometimes it’s super steep and sometimes you have to run other times you can go a little slow but you’re always going uphill.
And every now and then you just got to turn around and look and look at it at where you where you are now and look how high you gotten and look at everything you’ve done behind you.

[4:03] Appreciate that your hard work is paid off that think that’s an important thing to do and young professors just getting started you know,
it’s hard for them to do because they’re running up a steep hill as fast as they can and maybe there’s no time to turn around and reflect but.

[4:22] Even you know at the end of each year think God what about what did I accomplish this year what have I done what can I check off and then it’s you’ll be amazed what you’ve actually done.
Too but that’s not that wasn’t what your question was your question was about how it’s good advice though you actually do journal,
do you like because you’re talking about self-reflection and and and appreciating what you have I mean just made me think of
that the journaling practice kind of you know being a little bit more self-aware.
I wish I wish I could say yes I journal but I know what I do do I have an annual report every year that I need to fill out and submit to my university.

[5:13] Can I do my annual report I look at,
how many students have graduated this year and now we don’t have any papers that I probably see her how many proposals did I ride or courgettes funded this year how many meetings did I go to how I know how many,
how many organizations leadership roles that I do I mean you can you really look fat each year and you can sort of see,
what’s the product has been of all the work that you’ve done.
So it’s not a bad idea to sit down and and and blog or journal your career if you want or if you have time to do that I need to be an interesting idea.

[5:57] Going to the other insight you have is that you climb literal mountains so I was thinking of that when you’re the visual of turning around and saying how far you came I mean you have that part.
Kind of beat I like I like thinking of it that way because it gives you a breather to stop and turn around is giving yourself a chance to take a breather get your stamina back and then also appreciate where you been,
without question the analogy had to do with it the Everest Base Camp trip
it’s a hard hike but every now and then you just look and you go wow, I can’t believe what we just did today and how far we’ve come in and how beautiful it is
so so so back to the question so how do you how do you create a career for yourself.

[6:49] I would say I would have to get a lot of credit to sorta how fast things went for me.
To my colleagues and my mentors and my students.
I am fortunate here at that Carnegie Mellon that I had exceptional mentoring as a junior faculty member,
person to pat you on the back it’s a person to open doors for you so.
They can call the universities and friends at universities and say hey why don’t you invite great to give a seminar,
Get him on your seminar schedule next year and so my in my senior colleagues were working hard to get me in in front of various people at different universities,
or if they were organizing a meeting to say hey,
why don’t you know what one in here why don’t you get get Lowry in as a keynote speaker for this for this particular meeting.
Having people behind you at your own University helping open the door for you you don’t you you need to be doing the good work and you need to be producing something that’s of interest for them to be able to put you up for that,
but they have to be there to open the doors for you so I guess my advice to Junior member would be to.

[8:13] Find a mentor if you’re not assigned one and even if your assigned one find more.

[8:20] You know latch onto as many senior people as you can that have an interest in making sure the junior faculty at their organization are growing.
And take advantage of opportunities that they can provide for you.

[8:38] That would be one the other I think kind of reflecting on me,
The advice I got coming here and then bites a lot of people get and give us a topical areas to three different things and and you know have three lines in the water if you will and see what will hit in different places.
That’s kind of true that that’s exactly what I did I had three lines in the water that one of them.
Was catching a lot more fish than the other two and so I got a lot of of.
Research dollars in grants funded for nano iron and in this case for the groundwater remediation.
I wasn’t afraid I guess I already had the money in the door I suppose in some sense this is this is.
At that point I said I’m going to put all my eggs in this basket I am going to become really good at this I’m going to immerse myself in this particular topic,
and if I did if Nano iron comes up I want everyone to know like instantly that Lowry, you need Lowry to give this talk,
and it might not just be me but maybe me and one or two other people on the topic you want to be the best at that and be like the household name for that particular topic.

[9:59] That helps a lot because then you’re invited to the meetings then when you submit proposals on a topic and I got this guy really knows what they’re doing.
Get a little benefit of the doubt that way.

[10:13] You know the risk of course is that you don’t you don’t want to you don’t want to choose the wrong one but.
In my case since I had already had some successes in that area and I could see that it was going to send you to grow and end it was a real important problem.
I sort of just went all in on that one topic and can became an expert in that area.

[10:36] So that would be that and then the other the other piece would be the sort of stay focused on the fundamentals to a lot of times we.
Someone will call and say oh can you test this water for me can you test this for me test that for me,
and it’s it’s quite empirical it serves a purpose and maybe you’ll get a $20,000 grant or whatever from a company which is bad because sometimes I can turn into a long-term relationship with a company which is good,
but your core research program should be addressing the fundamentals of the problem that you’re in right whatever system you’re studying,
what are the what are the real fundamental questions that need to be answered in that system and if you’re doing that then,
then it translates to everyone else’s research right it allows it allows your research to be more relevant and to address key fundamental questions that can then be.
Could not help understanding for the whole satellite industry around the topic that are studying a particular niche areas they all rely on your fundamental contribution to move forward.

[11:46] Gives your work high-value all of those things help working on important problems this is really a key,
if your if you are working on an important problem people are going to be having workshops and and in various meetings around that problem and then you’ll be at the table because you’re an expert on that particular important problem.
So actually I wanted to go back to the three lines in the water advice.

[12:14] So you is kind of you kind of said that like it’s a typical advice and I took it and I did it as if maybe.
You should have maybe focused on something stronger first? Or do you do would you still advise someone to kind of.
Put those three lines in the water and see what hits there was obviously an in the second part of that question is yes you were bringing in money for the nano iron and stuff,
it was also there’s you were also kind of reading the tea leaves right and seeing how many conferences were popping up in that area and other things like that there was a lot of probably background,
decision making that you were that you were doing in terms of like I want to go on all in on this.
So I guess I’m I guess I’m asking a question about how soon.
Do you focus down and become the expert on something like if you’re having a conference on this this needs this person needs to be here.
That’s a great strategy but there’s obviously some risk there.
Yeah I agree to know when I first got started I was I had some sediment remediation I had a fishing pole for that,
I had groundwater remediation largely because that was what my PhD work was on,
different than nano iron but generally the same idea so I had a good understanding of the issues and then I was actually doing carbon sequestration kind of work with oil and gas kind of work.

[13:41] And I thought okay these are three important areas of research I am going to start a claim and write proposals and those three areas and I’m going to sort of see what comes in,
and then as things hit.

[13:55] For me at least what happened was I had a few hits and little hits on two of those but I had lots of hits on one of them,
it was almost like a natural decision for me to say okay here’s here’s where most of my resources here’s where I’m going to spend all my time and effort if you are getting nibbles on everything and there is no clear,
clear winner then I guess it’s a little harder to to make that decision or that distinction.
But I would I would guess that in most cases you’ll have more success in some areas than others.
And I guess the key advice is where you’re having success that is where you ought to be focusing your efforts.

[14:40] And don’t just don’t say oh I got I got a grant in this now I’m all set. Now I’m going to get five more.
I mean that’s.
Brushing up on something that has come up a lot and a few different interviews which is it learning how to say strategic nos because it’s just especially in the early part of your career you just,
have to say so many yeses and and you’re jumping on all these opportunities and pushing ahead and climbing the mountain right.
But I think it’s really good advice to say at some point you’re going to be sacrificing the quality and up that you can go into and I wonder if you remember was it difficult at all or was it did it take some discipline to say I’m actually going to.
Not to consider these other two areas or was it kind of a natural thing for you,
if anyone calls you and says hey we want you to do this and I will pay you will pay you to come here but I will pay your airfare and everything you just jump on it.

[15:50] You too I’m heading it’s a natural thing to be like okay someone wants to hear what I have to say I’m and I’m going to go do that I guess I wouldn’t.
It’s hard to turn down it really is hard to say no to things but if I could do it all over again.
There are certainly things that I said yes to that someone paid for everything for,
but I sat for two days and was bored out of my mind and I I got up and I spoke for my 30 minutes and a couple people listen but didn’t really care that much and some kind of a waste of my time.

[16:26] So I would I guess these days you know now I don’t say yes to everything and.
 more offers come in for sure and you can’t say yes to everything,
but even the decision process that I put on these is A will I learn something new.
Will it will I learn something new is number one and then number two is will what I do have an impact or not.

[16:52] And both of those are low if I’m not going to learn much and I think it’s going to have minimal impact I’m going to say no.
Unless it’s in the Turks and Caicos or somewhere and then of course I’m going to go you got a balance yeah I got a balance to be realistic about a career point of view there is only 24 hours in a day,
and we can only work 18 of them at most right most of us and we prefer to work a lot less than that.
And because of that you really have to choose,
wisely and I think the sooner you can choose wisely and the sooner you can focus down and be a an expert on something on an important problem but you’re the expert on it or one of a handful,
this the better off you are from a career trajectory point of view 

Another thing that we wanted to pick your brain about.
Which I’ve gotten to talk to you about a couple of different times and have really enjoyed seeing how you put it in practice in your career which is the reinvention of it,
move where you know you are established in a certain area and then you kind of.[18:12] Want to grow your interests and you want to get into a new area that maybe is aligned with your interests but as we know there’s you know different trends come up different
big focal areas come to the National Academies or you know down through different funding agencies and,
so I wondered if you could just kind of speak to what advice you have for getting into these new areas and,
Pivoting both in the big picture again and then also at the practical level.
Jerry Schnoor was one of the people who always said you have to be reinventing yourself multiple times in your career to stay relevant and he did so.
And I think I think there’s truth to that you didn’t you know I’m I’m in the process of reinventing myself right now,
I guess the best way to to do this would be a bit of an anecdote so.
I spend my first 10 years of my career doing nano iron and I spent a whole lot of time thinking about.
How to make these nanoparticles move around in the environment how to make some attach to surfaces how to make them as reactive as I want them or not as reactive as I want them to limit reactivity.[19:30] Control it,
you know it turned out that because we were focused on the fundamentals of how the polymer sits on the surface how does the polymer affect reactivity what how does the attachment to the surface and aggregation effect transport.
Those fundamental questions transported nicely to,
The implications of of nanotechnology we’re the same exact questions were being asked how far do they transport are they how do they change while they’re moving
what is it if you’re an organ than what are you exposed to the you know how to transform,
same exact questions applied to two different scenarios if you.
Right now I’m reinventing myself in agriculture and I’m thinking about how do we use nanomaterials in agriculture how do we make agriculture more efficient how do we make it more resilient.
The more I get into it
if the pivot is hard because I had to read a biology book a plant biology book I had to understand what a plant what I had you can’t show up at these meetings and say oh yeah now I’m looking you may not know something about plant physiology because,
you’re missing half your problem.
So it takes an extreme amount of effort to learn the domain space enough where you’re asking the relevant most important question.[20:52] Once you gotten to that point where you in a year in a new domain space and you know it well enough to ask what the key questions are,
then you can say OK what are the what are the fundamental questions where where do we meet where we lack where the knowledge gaps where do we need to fill us know if.
It turns out a couple weeks ago.
I realize all I do now is fate and transport of nanoparticles in plants.
It’s the same thing it’s exactly the same thing we’re putting coatings on nanoparticles so that they will interact with the cuticle of a plant in a way that allows them to pass that cuticle,
we’re putting coating so that they can move through the mesophil which is just a bunch of por it’s a porous medium but it sells instead of sand grains.
It’s the same questions that were asking same fundamental questions slightly different domains.

[21:51] So when people say reinvent yourself they don’t really I don’t.
I used to think that man okay now I got to go do something totally different it’s not like I’m going to be a physicist and I’m not even going to I’m not a biologist either.
But I am going to understand this biology domain space well enough to know what the Peyton transport questions are and then apply my core skills at to a new problem.

[22:19] I think is the way that we would most easily transition our skill-sets I think that goes back to your advice about.

[22:29] Staying grounded in the fundamentals.

[22:31] Because that that’s exactly what allows you to pivot to a new topics you’re you’re you’re not going to far field from the fundamentals.
the real does the problem is in the ramp up like you you have to understand the domains face in the problems for example for this
I inserted myself into a National Academies panel on agricultural research breakthroughs for 2030.
So so that I can get my arms around the domain that was a year commitment and a lot of work but it really helped me understand what the key problems are and what the key questions are,
it’s like you have to find a way to allow yourself to go back to school briefly,
do you not I’m not just briefly I mean it’s a serious effort to say I am going to I would love to have taken a course I couldn’t quite get that in,
but I can certainly download e-textbook and read it when I had time and read chapters about plant physiology and understand,
what what leaf tissue looks like and what its components are and and how it works.

[23:40] And that was it was eye-opening for me because when I first got into it,
I had this vision of what I wanted to do and then when I learned how to plant really worked it totally changed my vision or my approach to to doing what we wanted to do with the plants so,
at this point in time we’ve been talking to you for a little bit and so we want to do something we do with all of our guests from academia to do a little bit of a light speed around here so we’ll we’ll ask him quick questions,
you can obviously be as brief as you want to or you can expand on the answer but we won’t talk too much,
so we’re going to walk will go to the questions in rapid succession and then we’ll wrap it up is that sound good.
Sure I haven’t I haven’t seen any of these questions so this is really going to be off the cuff yes exactly Christine you want to shoot with the first one what is one mistake you made

[24:35] A mistake that I made probably going back to what we talked about before is not.
Not saying no to some two things that really were.

[24:52] What are the benefit of doing it did not outweigh the cost so so I didn’t contemplate the cost-benefit ratio of opportunities given to me early in my career.
What is your biggest win in your career so far?
Well the center of course where they are the NSF Center for that we had for the last 10 years was was huge.

[25:15] That affected a lot of us pretty well.
Add one more thing that I mean getting the center was great and getting the resources is great but then.
What the outcome of that was the number of students that that we produced out of that center that have gone on,
To great careers at me just across the board in terms of academia government-industry everywhere it’s been fantastic.
Cool to be nearing the end of that funding arc see how awesome the impact is.
So the next one is when do you write?

[26:01] When do I write to my brain my writing brain works best in the afternoon and evening.
So I have a really hard time writing in the morning,
in my morning I do administrative crap and it doesn’t require a lot of like deep writing whatever whatever part of my brain does writing needs to wake up and I don’t need that to do administrative things.
I work on and then after dinner is my best writing time 

Do you have any fears in your career?
All the time I’m in and it was a sinner ending my fear right now is is how do I,
how do I how do I get back to that place I was 5 years ago where we were sort of really in this mad Fury of productivity on an important problem I want to I want to get there again,
and my fear I guess would be that I won’t get that opportunity well I am from the outside at 2.
Not have the fear that the person has and it’s because they have it that you’re not worried for them but I am certain that saying is not the last giant problem that you’re going to be in the middle of.[27:22] Solving not making a giant problem I appreciate that
find me I would love to have another Center focus on
and food issues and food security issues and just sustainability of Agriculture moving forward I think that’s an important topic.
I agree with you I think it’ll happen at it’s just.
There’s some nervous and the tension of like it when it’s not happening and some,
summer I get some you you write these great proposals and you think they’re wonderful and then they don’t get funded and you just can’t understand why and you got to start it keep forging ahead and I know it’ll happen but I can’t help but think,
what is a dozen.[28:11] So how do you escape from the daily grind so you have like a work hard play hard approach so how much play and fun do you work in?[28:22] Probably not enough…
I work out and I enjoy that and I absolutely make time for that and I hang out with my kids and I make time for that until you’re sort of the two things that I do to get away from it all.
I will say that the one thing that really I have benefited over the last 18 years is that I haven’t been a 12 minute walk from my house to my office and I have to go over this hill.
So no matter what’s happening in my office when it’s time to go home I sort of have 12 minutes to hike up this hill and like.
Just get it out of my system so when I get home I can just chill with my family and and or work out or do something.

[29:14] Question after everyone’s in bed I get back on it for a couple of hours but I can you know.
I think having a wasp how do you commute that doesn’t involve driving in a car and yelling at other people in cars I think it’s helped me a lot was it’s actually put a lot of time back in my life,
if you think about it if you had to drive an hour each day each way 2 hours a day I’m driving,
* 5 days a week times a lot of years that’s a lot of hours,
yeah it’s it’s it’s starts add up and I think that especially like in our generation people are starting to really,
put the time cost on things of living out in the suburbs I mean suburbs are huge out here in Houston and I think the trend is now over versing because people like wow this is actually there’s a real cost here in
Covenant think about that very much before so nice,
it’s nice to be able to mega cities in urbanization that’s happening he asked,
yeah is that it would be nice if we could do a lot of urban farming and bring agriculture back to people so they can see,
just how intense energy in intensive in space intensive it is maybe they’d waste less food.

[30:36] Yeah well Greg I really appreciate you joining us today we really had a great conversation I actually think,
at this conversation can be in two parts so we’re thinking that the first part and the second part will be to a 2-part episode so,
thanks for providing so many,
just nuggets of great information I think I wrote down several quotes from you that we’re going to be able to use in promoting the podcast to so thank you.
Thanks for doing this I think it’s a really good service to,
the budding academic community that we need cuz you know the past few years or the past five or six years and with funding crunches and things.
A lot of students look at that and I don’t want to do that until they act Damien sort of missing out on a lot of really good people,
and I think this kind of podcasts were giving people advice,
and maybe you even want to go back a little bit and try to do something the targets PhD students that are thinking about Academia and giving them some advice and,
some understanding about how awesome this job really is and then it’s worth it even though it can be frustrating.

[31:53] Yeah you know that’s exactly what’s been so fun about it is that we originally started having conversations to someone address
some issues of people have already know frustrations or confusions and what we’ve ended up finding is just this theme of positivity high-energy excitement you know engagement throughout,
The career from everyone who is making it work at various stages of,
their Professor life you know so it’s been really eerie energizing and I know I’ve learned a lot,
from working with you over the years and I think that it’s awesome that people who are listening will get to do that too
you’ve been listening to episode 16 of helium podcast the show notes for this episode can be found at
We also have a fusion Friday email that goes out every Friday to distill information for your early career success this can be found on any podcast page if you scroll down to the bottom you can sign up for that email list.

[32:56] The music for this episode was provided by Michael Blake he can be found at
Episode 16 was edited by Zach Hendren and produced by Christine Ogilvie Hendren and me Matt Hotze.
Thank you so much for being a Helium podcast listener we really appreciate you please feel free to contact us at any time let us know about the show or if you had suggestions for guests or,
topics we would love to hear from you,
our next episode is in two weeks and it’s on technology combat not exactly technology combat but combating technology in your life,
the things that you can do to reverse the effect that technology is having on all of us and that is with Matthew Kent so we’re excited to share that episode with you in a couple of weeks and it’s perfect for the start of the new year so,
looking forward to it and happy New Year to you all.

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